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Post by Tive on Mar 10, 2006 15:52:44 GMT -5
Well, the way I'd read it (if memory serves, it's been quite a while) in C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" is that Christianity is a religion that's attractive for people who *know* that they kind of 'need' Divine help to become better people than they are now. If you believe you're mostly an alright person, you do have a few blemishes but only a few, then Christianity won't be as attractive, because you'll feel that you only need God's help a little bit. Um. I don't think I agree totally that Christianity easily shrugs off a person's guilt, because for me, I find it hard to accept forgiveness, even though I know that in Christian theory it's supposedly 'free'. (Or rather, that Someone Else'd paid my dues as well). And I seem to recall there being a Divine admonishment to Christians from God, that they should "Be perfect as I am perfect."... Um. I don't think that that's putting the bar too low.
What I do see too much of in a lot of people who call themselves Christian, is that they think that Christian rules of thought and behaviour are only valid for them until they decide they're somehow special and don't need to listen to them. In the Netherlands it is said that Christians follow the secular world by 10 years, so where secular people are now, Christians'll be in 10 years... I consider that a horrible thing, because it's all too true. Christians do seem to be blind, and able to forget that they are *supposed* to *not* look like the secular world.
Um, about America falling behind Asia and Europe, I kind of hope they will. Because right now America is the 6 zillion pound parrot, and *no* other nation can force it to stop doing what is wrong. Besides, since in South Dakota they don't even want to allow abortions to women who got raped, well, I consider them to be pro-rapist scum, and anyone supporting them doesn't deserve much... Except maybe a noose around their own neck, perhaps.
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Post by Mac on Mar 11, 2006 1:39:43 GMT -5
Luckily, I'm neither a person living in South Dakota nor a supporter of that law. I'm not a particular fan of using abortions as birth control, but I'm also not one to force women to comply with my viewpoint. Pro-choice doesnt always mean pro-abortion.
I also want America to stay ahead, but likely because I am American myself. Go us.
I'm glad that Christianity, as well as most other religions, modernize. Think how impossible it would be for social improvement to occur if religions refused to reform. You have to remember, religion was used by slave owners to justify slavery. "God made Africans inferior, therefore its not to treat them like animals. God gave us all the world's creatures, remember?" If not for advancing social change, it would be ok to own slaves, kill adulterers and homosexuals, and women would be punished for getting raped. All things justified in the past by religion.
Alot of religious peope are "fair weather followers". They'll follow their religious teachings when it doesnt impede in their life, but as soon as they want to do something that is against their religion, the religion goes out the window. Human desire trumps faith.
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Post by Tive on Mar 11, 2006 9:20:31 GMT -5
I'm glad that Christianity, as well as most other religions, modernize. Think how impossible it would be for social improvement to occur if religions refused to reform. You have to remember, religion was used by slave owners to justify slavery. "God made Africans inferior, therefore its not to treat them like animals. God gave us all the world's creatures, remember?" If not for advancing social change, it would be ok to own slaves, kill adulterers and homosexuals, and women would be punished for getting raped. All things justified in the past by religion. Alot of religious peope are "fair weather followers". They'll follow their religious teachings when it doesnt impede in their life, but as soon as they want to do something that is against their religion, the religion goes out the window. Human desire trumps faith. If people used Christian principles to justify slavery then they deliberately chose to ignore it's entire intent. *Nowhere* can Christianity condone slavery. One of it's primary rules is "love thy neighbour as thyself". You're not loving your neighbour if you enslave them. Saying that another people may be treated as if they are animals simply because they have a differently colored skin is lying. What I would like to see is Christians to return to the true foundation of their faith, since if they did they'd know that rape, adultery, the killing of homosexuals, etc., etc. are things that are *not* okay. An interesting point though, is that people have used religion for ages to push their own double standards. You know the story about how the Jews in Jesus time caught a woman comitting adultery, and were all set to stone her (as Jewish law required), but then in order to entrap him, they asked Jesus what they ought to do? Jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone". And in the end, no one did. But I'll ask you this: where was the *guy* who participated in that adultery? Is it okay for him, but not for her? My answer is: not on your life! There is one Christian law, and it is valid equally for men and women. As far as punishing women for (perceived) adultery goes, don't you think that new proposed South Dakotan abortion law won't do just that, if they choose to live by it there? For the record: I'm not for abortion in general, I don't think it should be a 'convenient' form of anti-conception after-the-fact. But I *do* think they should be allowed when rape or incest is involved.
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Post by Mac on Mar 12, 2006 3:12:55 GMT -5
If people used Christian principles to justify slavery then they deliberately chose to ignore it's entire intent. *Nowhere* can Christianity condone slavery. One of it's primary rules is "love thy neighbour as thyself". You're not loving your neighbour if you enslave them. Saying that another people may be treated as if they are animals simply because they have a differently colored skin is lying. I dont disagree with you, but it's historical fact that it happened. It's the same reason some muslims use the Koran to justify suicide bombing. It's gross warping of their holy book. People will do what they want, then find a small obscure passage taken out of context and exaggerated to justify themselves. I also think that often hate of other religions or beliefs is justified by religion, not caused by it. Even if Isreal wasnt jewish, the surrouding arab countries would find some reason or another to hate them. I believe the same about homosexuals. Even if the bible said "Gay sex are perfectly acceptable", they'd still be hated simply because they're different. Humans crave uniformity. When someone is different, they hate or fear them. It's one of the biggest tragedies of history that religion has been warped to foster and inflame hatred, rather than reduce it like it should. Honor killings still go on today in Turkey and other arab countries. Though I dont think it's because of Islam. Fundamentalists of any religion will find all the bad and ignore all the good and use it as a form of control. Theocracy is something to be feared. The only reason that Islam is so focused on is because excluding Vatican City, there are no true theocracies for any other religion. India had a semi-official Hindu theocracy, but its fairly democratized now. But they had their segregation and abuse Caste system. Mixing government and religion corrupts both of them. While I have nothing against religion (excluding the all-too-often use as justification to hate), I'm a strong supporter of large seperation between church and state. Abortion, when you take a step back, is an interesting topic. If you believe a fetus is not alive, then abortion control laws are an infringement of civil liberties. If you believe a fetus is alive, then you believe allowing abortion is legalizing murder. It's fascinating how the same event can be seen so differerently just by looking through a different lens. It's not a disagreement on an issue, it's seeing it as two seperate issues entirely.
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Post by Tive on Mar 13, 2006 14:28:16 GMT -5
All those different sorts of hate groups, I guess it's just people who think they are powerless, who are having a bad time. They need someone to blame, and will attack those who are weaker and more defenseless than themselves. And those who are *really* into hating gays, I wonder if that's not cause they're not sure enough of their own sexuality.
As far as when does life begin, I don't know, and I wouldn't want to say. I was looking at it more through the lens of how horrible it all must be for the pregnant women who don't want to be but got it forced onto them.
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Post by Kentaru on Mar 13, 2006 17:54:50 GMT -5
God is not a problem, it's the people "hinding" behind God that are. I am very much against: - People using religion to justify their actions. - A litteral interpretation of any religious text.
For the record, I am a firm believer of free will. Be there a God or not.
Instead of talking about science what would you think of discussing God's nature instead?
- Can God do anything? - How does God look like? - Do we really have free will? - Is God good or evil? - What about miracles? - Is there something after we die?
nr.1 - I am sure some of you know of the famous example, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg: "Can God make an object so heavy that he won't be able to lift it?" nr.2 - What image do you get when you hear the word "God"? Man? Woman? Black? White? ect. nr 3 - I say yes. Some may argue against. nr 4 - Must be a question may ask themselves when something really bad happens to them. My personal standpoint is that both #1, #2 & #4 are ridiculous, however Mankin *asks* itself those questions, not realizing that the very concept of God defies all those simplifications and categorizations. nr 5 - Another story: A believer is on a ship that is about to sink. One after one three people sail near him and ask if they should save him and the man says "No. My God will save me"... in the end the man sinks and when he comes to Heaven he asks God, "Why didn't you save me" and God answers "Huh? What are you talking about? I sent three boats out to save you". nr 6 - Like Heaven or Hell or both or maybe reincarnation. My standpoint is: Nothing. we might not get to Hell for what we do or be reincarnated into a lower species however "We only have this life" and that should be enough not only to make people want to live their life to the fullest but also to realize that there is *no* second chance if they screw up.
The very question "Why do you believe in God" is IMO not the correct way to ask. Per definition either you believe or you don't. Nobody can prove me wrong so I say: I believe.
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Post by Mac on Mar 14, 2006 4:35:08 GMT -5
My answers will probably be strongly biased by my atheism, but I'll try.
1) I love a good paradox. 2) A formless creative force outside of our dimension and thus has no physical form. 3) Yes, though the circumstances of our lives are controlled through our interactions in society. Think "Crash". 4) Neutral. God would be a creative force, one who makes things and lets them go. A watchmaker god, if you will. Wind the universe up and let us go. I might think differently if I believe God created the universe in 6 days and made humans in his image, ect. 5) The world is ruled by probability. A miracle is an event that defies probability. 6) Even if I did believe in God, I'd have trouble believing in a soul and afterlife. And if I did believe in a soul and afterlife, I'd have a hard time believing in hell in the image of Dante's Inferno. If I did believe in a soul, I'd believe your lifeforce returns to nature. Its a system.
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Post by Tive on Mar 14, 2006 16:33:10 GMT -5
Instead of talking about science what would you think of discussing God's nature instead? - Can God do anything? - How does God look like? - Do we really have free will? - Is God good or evil? - What about miracles? - Is there something after we die? nr.1 - I am sure some of you know of the famous example, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg: "Can God make an object so heavy that he won't be able to lift it?" nr.2 - What image do you get when you hear the word "God"? Man? Woman? Black? White? ect. nr 3 - I say yes. Some may argue against. nr 4 - Must be a question may ask themselves when something really bad happens to them. My personal standpoint is that both #1, #2 & #4 are ridiculous, however Mankin *asks* itself those questions, not realizing that the very concept of God defies all those simplifications and categorizations. nr 5 - Another story: A believer is on a ship that is about to sink. One after one three people sail near him and ask if they should save him and the man says "No. My God will save me"... in the end the man sinks and when he comes to Heaven he asks God, "Why didn't you save me" and God answers "Huh? What are you talking about? I sent three boats out to save you". nr 6 - Like Heaven or Hell or both or maybe reincarnation. My standpoint is: Nothing. we might not get to Hell for what we do or be reincarnated into a lower species however "We only have this life" and that should be enough not only to make people want to live their life to the fullest but also to realize that there is *no* second chance if they screw up. The very question "Why do you believe in God" is IMO not the correct way to ask. Per definition either you believe or you don't. Nobody can prove me wrong so I say: I believe. Don't mind changing the subject a bit: the science vs. belief debate was dying out... Can God do anything? In regard to that can-God-create-a-rock-He-can't-lift question, it's not a question that proves anything,so what good is it? The Bible (and Paul in particular) wrote that God can do infinitely more than we can imagine or concieve... The question is therefore not "can God do X?" but will He or won't He, and why (or why not)? What does God look like? I don't know. I think Hebrews (or wherever) does make clear God is spirit. Genesis claims man was made in God's image. I don't know how we resemble Him, though... Perhaps in our ability to love? I doubt that's about some sort of physical resemblance. I sort of imagine a an older white guy with a beard, or a sort-of sun... Yeah, we have free will. Which is both great *and* it sucks... Is God good or evil? You mean to ask if it's more like God and the devil are two opposite forces that couldn't exist if not for the other, as some apparently believe? Per definition God is good. That He suffers evil to exist is coz He values free will so much... Miracles? What about them? I suppose they are acts of God, and/or things that can't be explained by science or both... I'll admit, though, that I'm not all too fond of the fact that the Bible tells me I 'gotta' believe demons exist, though... I don't know *for sure* whether or not God exists nor that there is an afterlife. (If I did, it would be 'knowing' instead of 'believing'.) Here's a question to bug believers with, though: "is there life *before* death?". I certainly hope that there is an afterlife though, and that those who didn't (or hardly) had a chance to live here, got another chance after their death. Part of me says 'eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow it may be too late'. I think God wants us to be happy with the things that can make us happy in this life, as long as they aren't inherently bad for us or others.
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Post by Kaitou Kunoichi on Mar 14, 2006 18:57:26 GMT -5
I don't necessarily believe in 'God' anymore. I was raised methodist and the rest of my family is religous, but I don't exactly agree with them. I do believe that, yes, there is something out there that is greater and more powerful than ourselves, but when it comes to whether it had anything to do with the creation of the world or humans and whether it can hear our thoughts and prayers, I have my doubts.
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Post by Mac on Mar 15, 2006 3:07:31 GMT -5
I'd really love an answer to the God paradox. Kinda like "unstoppable force meets immovable object".
You know whats funny about the Michalangelo's image of God as the big bearded man with the flowing robe? Doesnt it look like another famous deity? Oh right, Zeus. The modern image of God was blatently ripped off of Greek mythology. Having God being a formless spirit would make more sense, as would the "making in his image" being more a spiritual/emotional thing.
It wouldnt really make sense for good to be dependant on evil, because then you'd be saying that God is powerless without the Devil and that would be saying that God isnt omnipotent. I see it all as shades of gray.
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Post by paradox on Mar 15, 2006 3:37:01 GMT -5
i believe in God, coz Every village must have its headman; every needle must have its manufacturer and craftsman. And, as you know, every letter must be written by someone. How, then, can it be that so extremely well-ordered a kingdom should have no ruler?
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Post by Mac on Mar 15, 2006 4:05:21 GMT -5
i believe in God, coz Every village must have its headman; every needle must have its manufacturer and craftsman. And, as you know, every letter must be written by someone. How, then, can it be that so extremely well-ordered a kingdom should have no ruler? True, but then you get stuck in the infinate loop of "Ok then, what created God?". Either you have no answer or you say "God doesnt have/need a creator", at which someone replies "If God can exist without a creator, then why couldnt the universe?". Shortly afterwards, the heretic gets excommunicated and burned at the stake. But you get what I'm talking about. Oh, and paradox, can you solve the "Can God create a puzzle he cant solve, box he cant lift, ect" paradox?
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Post by paradox on Mar 15, 2006 10:04:52 GMT -5
yes, i got whay u talking bout mac. but can you really believe the "system" thing. i mean yeah maybe there is but God created it, (i belive, coz subject is: "do u believe in God y?" so my aim is not to fight, but i am sure u get me) well, its a deep subject. maybe i cant tell you this so detailed, but i can try. i can take help some books maybe. but firstly i should learn this: do u really wonder? or ure completely against to believe in god? well as i said as before, its not a fight. if we cant deal it doesnt matter, friendship goes on right. (yea i know u think we are not friends maybe, but maybe we can?) both of us loving conan right? ;D
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Post by Mac on Mar 16, 2006 2:26:15 GMT -5
Huh? Lemme try to translate that. I'm not "anti-god", I just look at the evidence and draw my conclusion. You dont have to agree with me. You're allowed to draw your own conclusions. That's what freedom and free will is, no? You didnt answer my question though.
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Post by paradox on Mar 16, 2006 2:55:13 GMT -5
yes i didnt coz im not sure to understand it. my english is not wery well. im from another country.(pls forgive if i use bad english) but ill try to answer as i get it as. when i look around, i cnt believe universe going by itself. when i think to beggining, im asking how? how the all tihngs came together and theyre created so perfect order. and humans. how they can be so same and different, how they can be so smart how they can be the only thinking and talking creatures. universe is not so clever i think. but there is a great person who controls it. i mean always. God didnt just create the universe and left it. God doesnt rests. everything is getting create in every moment. in every second. (oops gotta go now, im at work. but im gonna come later.)
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