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Post by Grey on Mar 5, 2006 1:01:45 GMT -5
I believe in God, but in my own way. I'd like to think there is a good presence looking down on us and perhaps shakings his head at or mortal stupidity. But I'm not into the idea that just because someone isn't a certain religion then they'd end up in hell or something. I believe if there truly is a God then he'd be more understanding than that.
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Post by Mac on Mar 5, 2006 6:18:33 GMT -5
Tive: You're right, the odds are astronomically small. One could attribute that to divinity. However, I see it as considering the ridiculously huge amount of solar systems in the universe, a few must've fit the criteria. It was definately far far easier to be religious before science started advancing at the insane pace of the last century. If I didnt know that there were millions if not billions of other solar systems out there, and believed ours to be the only one, then I'd be much more inclined to believe. The fact is that I grew up a child of science. I've been studying it since I was very young. Despite the fact that my father was president of the local synagogue (I'm jewish) and I was attending services also since a young age, the science overwhelmed it in my mind. Had I not been a scientist as a child, I may have grown up a believer. People almost always believe as an adult what they're taught as a child. Religon conversions are few and far between, often more rebellion than faith.
Do you doubt the evolutionary theory or doubt the evidence and believe it points to a different, more god-based theory? Because ignoring data is like putting your head in the sand, but scientists often disagree over the possible meaning and theory based off the same data. Its certainly not unheard of, and you have a right to derive your own theory. The only reason that some theories are preffered over others is that the predictions based off them prove right under more varied types of experimentation, and integrate far more varied types of data without being proven wrong. Regardless, despite what scientists deem the current best theory based on the evidence, your faith does not have to agree. That's why its faith. Besides, science itself is a little bit of faith, the jump of accepting a theory as fact. Science exists to narrow the gap as much as humanly possible.
Grey: Unitarian? Agnostic?
I hope nobody in this thread thinks I'm attacking religion. I'm really not. I may be a science-loving atheist, but at no point have I ever said "You're wrong, here's why!". So no flaming me, anybody.
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Post by Ren on Mar 5, 2006 16:29:59 GMT -5
I believe in God
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Post by Coki-kun on Mar 5, 2006 22:44:15 GMT -5
What if I say if I believe in God but I don't care about him because he don't do anything for me.
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Post by Mac on Mar 6, 2006 2:37:28 GMT -5
What if I say if I believe in God but I don't care about him because he don't do anything for me. If your goal would be to rile people up and cause controversy, I dont think its working.
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Post by Tive on Mar 6, 2006 15:26:38 GMT -5
Tive: You're right, the odds are astronomically small. One could attribute that to divinity. However, I see it as considering the ridiculously huge amount of solar systems in the universe, a few must've fit the criteria. It was definately far far easier to be religious before science started advancing at the insane pace of the last century. If I didnt know that there were millions if not billions of other solar systems out there, and believed ours to be the only one, then I'd be much more inclined to believe. The fact is that I grew up a child of science. I've been studying it since I was very young. Despite the fact that my father was president of the local synagogue (I'm jewish) and I was attending services also since a young age, the science overwhelmed it in my mind. Had I not been a scientist as a child, I may have grown up a believer. People almost always believe as an adult what they're taught as a child. Religon conversions are few and far between, often more rebellion than faith. Oh, well, it's more than just that one fact, it's like all the many things that just sort-of have to 'almost magically' be right. And also, if you look at the whole idea of evolution, and break it down into steps, a lot of those different steps also need to 'magically' go right for evolution to 'work'. I am really just very sceptical that so many of the 'just-the-right' chances evolution needs would be possible, even when a whole lot of time is 'thrown' into the equation. But I suppose what it all comes down to is that when I look up into the sky, and see the awesome universe, or when I look around me in this beautiful Earth, I just can't believe all of it could have come to exist just by coincidence. I just can't. Even if it all started with a 'Big Bang', doesn't there need to be Something (or Someone) that gets the big bang started? It's ironic for me to hear you say that, in the vast gigantic universe, it's possible for there to be life in some places *because* it's so big and varied. Coz I'll tell ya, if I didn't believe in God's existence, I would find it impossible to believe that alien life could exist somewhere else. For at heart, I am a sceptic, and I'll want to be shown proof, before just believing in that kind of thing. Yet *because* I believe in God, I can ask, why should we necessarily think that we and the denizens of our planet are the only kinds of creature God has called to life?
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Post by Coki-kun on Mar 6, 2006 17:40:46 GMT -5
What if I say if I believe in God but I don't care about him because he don't do anything for me. If your goal would be to rile people up and cause controversy, I dont think its working. I would like to say that too some religious fanatic and see what happens. ;D
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Post by Mac on Mar 7, 2006 3:28:19 GMT -5
Interesting Tive. Usually the religious will say that they believe alien life is impossible because God created life on earth and only earth. But then again, believers used the same line to say the sun and stars revolved around the sun. Are you saying you're more of an agnostic, believing in a creative force rather than the whole "God creates man in his image and sacrifices his only son for our sins, ect..." typified by Christianity (or another religion of your choice)? I also find it interesting that you call yourself a believer and skeptic at the same time. The whole point of being a believer is having faith, while skepticism is about taking nothing on faith.
On aliens anyway, I have no proof they exist. Its just a hypothesis based on probability. If I'm going to believe that life doesnt have divine intervention (which is my belief), it would make no sense for me to go and say that life couldve only evolved on earth. I'd imagine it would be very rare and very un-earth-like, possibly not even using the same organic template systems, but I believe there's something, living somewhere, that we havent discovered and likely never will.
Biology class is actually interesting like that. Some things become clearer, like how respiration, replication, and cell formation can happen completely due to the natural laws. On the other hand, some things become more incredible, such as how so many proteins can exist based off only 20 amino acid "letters" whose 3D shape controls a ridiculous amount of activities and all work together. I know there have been billions of years to discover the working proteins and weed out the defective ones, but its still astounding. It's not hard to see the spark of divine in it. The myth that all evolutionary biologists are atheists is just plain wrong.
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Post by Tive on Mar 7, 2006 17:34:52 GMT -5
Huh? *Religious people* say that life isn't possible anywhere but here on Earth, coz that's where God created us? My goodness, I wonder if they read the same Bible I did? (I mean, do they think angels were necessarily created on Earth and don't they wonder what to make of Genesis 6?) Or perhaps maybe they don't bother to think about it much. Some people are like that, I guess. OTOH, I suppose they think about things I wouldn't...
I don't believe in any sort of living force of Nature or something that would be seeking to create life where there isn't any at present (unless that's an extension of God's hand, so to speak). On belief and scepticism, I guess I just mean that I can stretch my imagination that far that I can believe God created life, but I can't stretch it so much further (or at least, not very well), that I can find it easy to believe random chance & time created the beautiful and magnificent universe and life in it that we know of nowadays. Or to put it differently: if you can choose out of two things to believe, I'll take the alternative that's easier to believe in. And for me the one that just makes more sense (which makes it easier *for me* to believe) is the one that casts God as Creator.
In my point of view your "faith" in evolution-without-a-need-for-a-Divine-Creator and mine in well, God's being-behind-it-all-in-some-way, are just two different choices. You have chosen one thing to believe, which leads you to be sceptical of other things. I just 'sort of' chose *other* things to believe, which has led to my being sceptical about other things.
Oh, well this post's already gotten huge, so I'll cut it short a bit. On the existence of aliens, because I believe that God is 'big enough' to do so, why should He *not* have caused other life forms to come into being in other 'places'? If I believed only in evolution, I'd believe that no other alien life could 'just happen' to exist somewhere within the same general time frame (within a few billion years, say), universe, and be recognizably life at all, as we are.
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Post by Tive on Mar 7, 2006 17:43:48 GMT -5
I believe in God, but in my own way. I'd like to think there is a good presence looking down on us and perhaps shakings his head at or mortal stupidity. But I'm not into the idea that just because someone isn't a certain religion then they'd end up in hell or something. I believe if there truly is a God then he'd be more understanding than that. Personally, I think that most religions show some aspects of the truth, but Christianity reflects 'cosmic theological reality' as close as perhaps is possible on this Earth. But then, that's 'cause Christianity is such a weird faith, in many ways! The Bible clearly says, though, that any people that lives according to God's laws, even though they weren't given those laws as the Jews were, that God could and would accept such people as His own, so to speak. Er. I'm grossly generalizing, though, perhaps you might wish to read C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". Lewis explains and understood things way better than I could, I think. Just don't blame me for that book being "heavy", in a Christian/theological sense. And, unfortunately, in a sense that that's where you can find Christian principles as they don't seem to be taught much these days, even by 'fundamentalist' Christians.
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Post by Mac on Mar 8, 2006 5:55:30 GMT -5
Christianity is a very specific religion. Believing in a creator is general deism, but Christianity kinda forces you to believe God's only son Jesus Christ died for your sins and believing in that fact is the only way to heaven. So, they're not really the same thing. I find deism easier to believe in than Christianity (or most other major religions), as general deism is a logical conclusion to the mysterious origin of life and the universe, while organized religions (most of them, not just christianity) are big on "This is how it is because we say so, believe in us because everyone else is going to hell." The 'us verses them' mentality of organized religion makes me doubt it more than anything as a means of social control. Religion and belief in a god are not the same thing.
I really do find your belief in aliens interesting for its uniqueness. The usual consensus is "Well, if life was created without a god, then its entirely possible it happened elsewhere", while most religious believe that God purposefully created man, perhaps in his/her image, who were divinely created to be masters of the earth and superior to all other living creatures. But your belief combines the two, swaps them almost. I like it.
Science and religion really are not opposites or enemies. The idea of scientific parsemony is to report what is observed without resorting to supernatural causes. Saying "mutation appears random" is science, saying "mutation is controlled" or "mutation is absolutely random" goes outside the realm of science. Philosophy and theology maybe, but not science. And dont believe that scientists arent religious. Albert Einstein, the most famous physicist, was a devout believer. You mentioned the order of the universe. Most of it can be explained by physics. If you believe that physics is the natural derivative of matter and energy, it's easy to believe in a god-free universe (like I do). However, many scientists are of the opposite opinion. A famous scientific saying is "Chemistry is God's canvas and Physics is God's paintbrush". The natural laws really do explain how the universe is what it is. Things make sense when you study them. The real question of faith is whether or not the natural laws of physics, chemistry, and the path of evolution are divinely created and controlled or not. And that is not a question that can be or should be answered by science.
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Post by Tive on Mar 8, 2006 12:14:25 GMT -5
Yes, indeed. Science & religion aren't *necessarily* enemies, though people often think so. Earlier today I'd just been thinking, yeah: science is about *what* 'all' is there, and to a certain extent how we got from point A in the past to point 'now'. The religion thing tries to answer the why/for-what-purpose 'all' has. So they're really about very different things, fundamentally/philosophically speaking...
I'd like to go into your post further, but only after I get back home, DV and all that...
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Post by Tive on Mar 8, 2006 15:20:48 GMT -5
I find deism easier to believe in than Christianity (or most other major religions), as general deism is a logical conclusion to the mysterious origin of life and the universe, while organized religions (most of them, not just christianity) are big on "This is how it is because we say so, believe in us because everyone else is going to hell." The 'us verses them' mentality of organized religion makes me doubt it more than anything as a means of social control. Religion and belief in a god are not the same thing. Yeah, well. That kind of "thou-shalt-believe-as-we-do-or-you're-a-bad" Christian or unpatriotic-American or whatever kind of thing does really tee me off. People I care about that are like that, I'll be willing to tear a strip off of, so they might learn and profit from it. I've spent a lot of my life living among and dealing with people who call themselves Christian, but don't act at all as I think Christ would have. And that really, really bugs me. But there are reasons that Christianity is an attractive religion for people that are jerks. And while I can could go on about others, I am also a jerk, in my own way, more than I like. So I guess I better not get too harsh... Still, anyway, that kind of thou-shalt-think-like-we-do thinking abounds in more than just Christian circles. A lot of people apparently are okay with others thinking for them, but if God hadn't wanted us to think, He wouldn't 've given us a noggin, eh? Still, here's an interesting quote you might like: "the church is the only organisation that was founded for it's non-members". If that isn't what a church shows, then it's leaders and members have lost their way. And BTW, thanks for the interesting and civilised sharing-of-seemingly-opposing views. I'm also a liberal-ish and mostly in the minoroty member a group that discusses American politics, and the rather vehement trading of barbs in there had made me almost forget that presenting one's views can also be done in a more pleasant way.
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Post by Mac on Mar 9, 2006 3:27:36 GMT -5
Heh, believe me, I'm glad to not bring out the barbs too. I also had a very interesting debate with my roommate today about welfare laws without getting angry, so I'm doing pretty good. You're right, it isnt just christianity. Most major religions or beliefs in an area where they are the majority become bullies. In America, its christianity. In the middle east, its islam. And in reality, in Soviet Russia, atheists were the bullies. Its frustrating, but the fact is that society strives to make groups where all people think alike, and since religion cuts very deep about how a person thinks, it's often the biggest fighting point. But why would christianity draw jerks like you say? Easy, Jesus. Nothing wrong with Jesus himself, but the message "Believe in me, and your sins are forgiven." This way, people can do sins without guilt, then confess or pray, and believe themselves to be washed of it. Most other religions like judaism or hinduism dont let people off the hook that easily. I'm glad you see that science and religion arent enemies. Many people think that science is out to destroy religion, but the sad truth here in America is that religion is attacking science. Evolution is trying to be replaced with creationism, stem cell and genetic research is trying to get shut down, emergency contraceptives (not abortion) are being withheld from needing women because of a belief that it interferes with God's plan, and other such attacks. Then they claim they're just being defensive. It's sad really. America is going to fall behind Europe and Asia in science and technology if we continue to dilute science with religion and philosophy.
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Post by Haibara on Mar 9, 2006 3:37:57 GMT -5
I believe in god.
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